When You Think You're a Modern Workplace
We decided to try something new on today's episode: have ChatGPT outline our conversation on episode 28 of the Make Others Successful podcast!
We asked ChatGPT for an outline regarding workplaces that think they're modern workplaces, but in reality, aren't adopting the practices that truly make a workplace modern. Hint: your technology isn't necessarily what makes a workplace modern 👀
See what Mitch, Mike, Matt, and ChatGPT have to say about this in today's episode, it may surprise you!
Hey everyone. Welcome back to Make Others Successful, a podcast about stories, strategies, and insights for creating a modern workplace at your company. We have prepped zero for this podcast outside of us sitting around this table saying, what should we talk about? The premise that we're going to go with today is we're going to ask chat, GBT with a prompt, what should we talk about or give us an outline for a conversation live so we have a prompt ready. I'm going to read that in just a minute, but I do want to reel us back. Rewind back to two episodes ago was Bulb Gals. We had the ladies here talk about how they came from a, we'll call it non-modern workplace and liked the transition to here and things that they've learned, which is sort of what we're going to continue on today. But we did get some feedback from our most recent episode, which was Microsoft 365 updates You should know, or something to that effect.
And people liked our kind of genuine, honest conversation around that without being too biased, I guess I'll call it. So I want to prompt you all listening. If there was any part of that that resonated with you or things that you wanted us to talk about or you have different ideas around that, we'd love to know what you want our take on. So here's the prompt. It says we're recording a podcast. We want help coming up with an outline. The topic is about how some organizations think as long as they're using modern tools from their IT services, they are a modern workplace, but we know that there's so much more around having good processes and culture around these tools. Can you help us further articulate this difference and give us an outline for our conversation? Sound good? Go. All right. Chat. GBT says, certainly briefly introduce the topic, highlight the misconception that using modern IT tools alone defines a modern workplace. Then they want us to define what the difference is. So define a modern workplace. How does that work in the context of technology, process and culture? What are some of the processes? No, and then what are some of the pitfalls that the earlier audience that the fake modern workplaces fall into? And then just digging more into further those points, which we'll see how far we get.
Matt Dressel (02:38):
Okay, so let's start around this topic. Where does this topic come from? Why is it even a thing that we have on a list to talk about? What have we seen in the past that is kind of triggering this conversation?
Matt Dressel (02:55):
I would say it's two different things. Number one, some organizations, kind of two different camps, some organizations view all of the modernization of what they do as an IT effort and it's IT driven and it's IT responding to customer or end user demands. And in that world in perspective, from our perspective and what we look at a modern workplace and what it means to be that, it just doesn't count, right? If you're doing it that way, and we can get into the reasons why, but that's kind of one area. And the other is someone who has maybe done a big revamp of their technology stack and maybe has done a bunch of human design and focusing on end users and all of this stuff to make a great piece of technology 15 years ago and hasn't really done very much since. In that model. They knew what they needed to do at one point in time, but they kind of just let it sit and it's gotten stale and gotten old. And you can have a lot of different combinations of this. A lot of times organizations have pockets of one way or the other way and it's all over the place. But generally speaking, when you talk about the modern workplace, oftentimes it fits into one of those two areas. And it's not like somebody chose it, it's just the way it's always been or the way they don't know how to do it any other way.
I think for me, I would sum all of those scenarios up into something like, yeah, we're using technology and there was or was not at some point in time a declared why for whatever the thing was or the things were. And it's just some simple fact of the matter. You start to use them tools, you get used to 'em. If you stop remembering the why every day and declaring new whys for new tools, right? Then you're just a user of the tools. You're not actually a modern workplace. You're not using, let's say teams strategically, right? Do you use teams? Yes, we use teams. Why do you use it? What does it do for you? What results is it producing? If you're not paying attention to those things, you're not a modern workplace.
So a lot of this is based on just things we've seen over the years where maybe someone comes and talks to us and says, we use Microsoft 365, we have accounts, we're using Outlook, we're using Word Excel, all those tools. I didn't even know there were other tools that I could use, and can I just get training on those things? I don't want to necessarily have just a training conversation, but they think, oh, as long as I'm just going to use those tools, things will be automatically better. Just inherently there's some nuance there. And then the second one you said, which I'll restate is just at one point in time things were probably good, but over the years they got stale, they no longer have been able to keep up with the changes. And so reflecting on how the requirement to be a modern workplace prevents that, that cannot be the case if you kind of adapt to this other line of thinking that we're suggesting here. So let's get into defining that. And we have talked about defining a modern replace in the past, and so I don't necessarily want to go too far into it. I do feel like we have some new thoughts around the different areas, like six different areas that we believe impact being a modern workplace, which we can talk about. But let's just give some context around what is it more than just technology? Again, if I'm just getting a managed service provider to give me accounts and I'm using tools, why am I not a modern workplace?
Matt Dressel (06:59):
Yeah. So what Mike said is I think the core of it, which is if you aren't using tools to accomplish an outcome with a defined why and a defined purpose aren't a modern workplace. And the reason for that is because if you don't know why you're using the tools and you likely aren't using them using the correct tool or the correct tool efficiently to actually achieve the outcomes that you need to achieve. And that is what a true modern workplace is about, being efficient and collaborative and connected, and you can use a bunch of words that can mean lots of things to lots of people, but all of those things can't work for your business if you aren't being intelligent about how you're using technology. And when we talk about technology, we don't just mean super cloud-based crazy stuff. In some of our other podcasts, we've talked about some of the low tech things that people are doing, and all of it is related to the why or related to what you're trying to accomplish as a business. And it's that connection that is the missing piece in most organizations.
So putting a why around a technology tool or a situation, as long as they put that in place, you feel like that's what puts them over that threshold.
Matt Dressel (08:25):
If everyone who's using it understands why they're using it and they know what they're supposed to be doing with it, even if you're using old technology, you're not using the latest and greatest technology. If you know why there is a reason behind it and it makes sense and you've articulated to everyone, okay, great,
Yeah, all of these things should fit within the organization's subsidiary structure of goals. And if they don't, then it's just
Chaos. Well, I think you're touching on one of the prompts from chat GBT here, which is emphasize the interconnected nature of these elements, which is good, but the elements themselves are technology, processes and culture. We want to talk about the processes or culture anymore. What does a process look like for a modern workplace when something new is coming down the line, how might they approach a problem or something new coming out or something like that?
Matt Dressel (09:31):
So process in particular, when you talk about that component of it, it's not modern really. It's something that's been going on for quite a long time. There's a lot of things that people talk about in Kanban, in Six Sigma in all of these processes that are really for manufacturing or whatever that might be. And a lot of that also applies here. When you talk about modern, you want to be enabling the people on the ground who are doing the work to have input into what's going on. And the reason that matters is because if they know what the business is trying to accomplish, they're best positioned to figure out how they could do their job better. And oftentimes in modern workplaces, they don't have a way to talk about that. They aren't educated in what the business is really trying to do.
You have a lot of people who talk about, let's say that I'm in a support help desk environment. If I'm putting goals out there that are about we, you need to be on a call no longer than 10 minutes. Let's say that outcome that you might get from having that goal might be very different than your goal for the business, which is to increase the satisfaction of calls, the resolution of calls in a shorter period of time. But if you don't explain that, that's really your goal. Your goal is how can we be better at accomplishing what you already are doing? Our satisfaction is huge right now. They love us, but do it in less time. That is a radically different statement approach.
If your leadership or you just get news down the pipe that, Hey, we got to keep it under 10 minutes, guys, you're going to be graded on how long they take you and you're going to get a demerit any minute over 10 minutes, whatever system, that does not accomplish what? That's
Matt Dressel (11:40):
Not what we talk about. So when we talk, oftentimes people will look at us and they'll say, when we talk about, when we say the word efficiency and goal setting and these things, people can easily translate that to what a lot of people have heard in the past. But a modern workplace should have goals that are meaningful to the mission of the business and tie everyone's role to that mission in some way
To ground us a little bit. Can we speak to the areas that we like to plan specifically? We're talking business strategy and culture. We don't necessarily do a ton of that consulting work.
Matt Dressel (12:16):
We don't set your culture for
You. But the areas that we do play that I'll just list quick is internal communication, internal collaboration, external collaboration, employee experience, and well, I'm running out change management, change management and business process. So those are the six areas. Are there any there that we want to speak to in this arena of what does a modern workplace look like?
So I was just going to say I think we've declared those six areas, and I think the reason we've declared those is because those are the six areas where the modern tools and technology that we're good at using that we know the ins and outs of intersect with the culture of any organization. And to us, those were the six ways it made sense to organize thought around an organization that's trying to become a modern workplace. And so I think those are the areas and they're easy, I think relatively easy to talk about individually when you say we have an internal communication problem, right? Okay, we all know what that means as opposed to some big generic, how are we going to use Microsoft 365 to improve our business?
So just to give extra context to this, we've identified these six areas and we're slowly marching down the path of articulating our thoughts on each one of these things and we realized it's a big mountain, it's massive and we'll get there eventually. We started with internal communication, which we've actually created a guidebook for. You've probably heard us talk about it, but we'd love for you to, I'll go check that out. It's all of our thoughts just boiled down into one guidebook around what is a modern workplace
Matt Dressel (14:06):
In that space
And what does internal communication look like at a modern workplace? We've done some around internal collaboration too, and yeah, slowly marching down there, we'll get there eventually, but I think that gives good context of this is sort of a pie in the sky theoretical idea. These are the areas that we feel comfortable talking about and how we connect the dots between those two. Let's move on to 0.3 from chat GPT, the pitfall of reliance on tools. So explore the common belief that having the latest IT tools is sufficient for modernization and give examples of organizations that have fallen into this pitfall if we have them.
Matt Dressel (14:55):
The thing I would say is that there are organizations who are using old technologies in our modern workplaces, and that is okay. We talk a lot about don't use email. There are organizations that do have primarily remote workers that aren't always connected to laptops. They're using text message for most of their stuff. That's fine. It's what it is. That's what they can use. They can't do anything else that has the best reception, the best connectivity, the best ability for them to communicate. That doesn't mean don't pair it with other things. That doesn't mean don't use those other things, but they're still using it and I would never tell them, don't use it anymore. There is no tech better technology today to do it that is reasonable in price. Right? It's
Interesting. I asked what the pitfalls were and you're softening the blow A little bit of it is, okay.
Matt Dressel (15:47):
It's my point in all of that is it's not so much about, just like the prompt talks about it is not about whether or not you're on the latest version of a piece of software. It's not about whether or not you are using the coolest cloud-based, whatever it's about. Is it the right technology for what you are doing in your business right now? I know lots of people
Who have, I was going to say like that specific example before you move on the text example, people are in the field, poor reception, they got to communicate any way they can in that scenario. That's a strategic choice period and that's what makes it, okay. Yep.
Matt Dressel (16:30):
And you could say the same thing with a lot of hospitals never. It took 'em forever to upgrade from Windows xp and the reason is because it was incredibly expensive. Their E, they had lots of justifications for it. Not all of them were good. Some of it is just they're lazy and don't want to spend money, but some of 'em were definitely logically reasoned out reasons. However, did they do a great job of communicating the why that it is? Okay, back to the text message thing. Somebody who chose to do that, that's really cool. Do they tell their office employees who are all on teams and talk to themselves all the time, why they do it this way and that it's okay that somebody who's in the field should be texting you and how that transition should work? Probably not. The other side of that that I'll talk about from a pitfall perspective is let's say a vendor that you have comes out with a new version or a project manager or a high level manager says, Hey, we need to go to the new version of this tool.
We're going to go to it. And we go to it. And they have in their mind about all of these great benefits that they're going to get out of it. And they did training tell everybody, we trained everybody about how to the tools and they get all done and productivity goes down and the success rate of projects using this tool go down. Why did it happen? What's going on? Maybe you don't even notice it for a year. They weren't listening to their end users and likely the end users don't see how this thing fits in their life and they're using some other process to make up for the gap. And because there's not that communication, because there's not that discussion, because there's not that either that explanation and concrete, this is the reason we're doing it and you don't have a choice. We have to do it this way or this is the reason we're going to do it and if it's not good enough, we'll figure out how to make it better. The results aren't what everybody expected and it's largely because they didn't start from a perspective of, okay, everybody knows what we're trying to accomplish, everybody understands why we're doing this, and then there's an open channel for, let me know if this isn't working.
Yeah, I think there's an underlying thing you're pointing at and it's getting a little bit back toward the cultural side of things, but lives underneath all six areas. And it's something like the goals that we set need to be relatable, articulate, challenging, and everyone needs to understand them. That's their articulated, relatable, I'm connected to them and then they'll work. It'll just work because people will find joy in progressing forward and accomplishing those goals and that's what creates a great workplace. The connectedness amongst employees, all of
Matt Dressel (19:39):
That stuff, everything you just said is true up until the point of you can do all of those things, but if you don't also have an IT staff or a technology partner or someone who can partner with them to take the feedback and do whatever they can to make it better, it's a challenge. You have to have both sides of it. And we talk a little bit about managed service providers and we talk about what we would consider to be traditional IT staff and it can be a challenge because they have, if you have internal IT staff, they're oftentimes seen as a cost to the business, not a solution or a critical component of a business. And if you're using a managed service provider, you haven't valued it enough to even have it be someone that's in your business, right? You've said, I'm going to use somebody else, which to be clear, can work and can be just fine. There's not necessarily anything wrong with, however, it's
Way easier to look at that as a cost though. It's someone else, we just pay them.
Matt Dressel (20:53):
It's not just looking at a cost. The IT managed service provider is looking at it as how can I use the least amount of money to deliver on the thing that I'm delivering? Right? A bad one. Sure. I mean of them, most of them are going to do that, right? Because they're trying to beat the competition for a good reason because a lot of times it's viewed as a commodity. If
There's any MSPs listening, I'm sorry.
Matt Dressel (21:16):
What's that? Yeah, they
Matt Dressel (21:18):
They all know it mean. I want to be really clear, good MSPs, average MSPs are going to try to do things for their customer, but we've had lots of MSPs that come to us and say, we've given 'em this piece of technology. They're asking for how to use it, what to do, how to make it the best in their business. We don't do that. That's not what they think that that's what we do, but that's not what we're getting paid to do. And it's the truth. The expectation about what an MSP is providing a managed service provider is providing to your business is oftentimes a little bit ask skew, right? They're not set up to do strategic projects necessarily. Many nps have strategic project components and parts of their organization and we'll hand it off to that other group. But oftentimes, honestly, many of those don't deal in the office automation, business process improvement spaces, they deal with custom dev or they deal with they're not, or they deal in big migration projects for a particular technology or they deal with and it's way more IT focused. And I
Feel like the saddest part about that is the organization they're working with is going through change. What better time to work on that strategy side of it too? Because if you just roll through with here's your new accounts, go ahead, see you later, they're going to have to find their own new work processes effectively on their own and then they're going to figure out it doesn't work later.
Matt Dressel (22:53):
That is the biggest problem with the specific technology stack that we deal with all the time. So with different technologies differently, if you're dealing with a particular, let's say it's a banking intranet solution. If I'm a bank and I've decided to use this tool, the chances of the tool doing enough of the stuff that I really want for it to kind of help out without a lot of strategy and figuring it out is probably pretty good because it's targeted at my market space and it's built around my vertical's needs. And in that scenario, it can work really well. Office 365 and the Microsoft stack can do lots of things. It can do lots of things pretty well at its core, it does everything and so then it does nothing.
You see that Microsoft
Matt Dressel (23:55):
Products too, a SharePoint site, a SharePoint site is like a website. I can do all sorts of stuff with it. What do you really want to do with it? It's up to you as the user to figure it out. And so in that world, when you're dealing about those products, and it's not just Microsoft products, you can look at the Google stack, you can look at lots of different spaces and they have similar things where, cool, you have this tool, how do I use it to solve my business problem?
Well, that's one of the things, we talked about that in one of our early podcasts too, like buying something off the shelf
Matt Dressel (24:27):
Building your own versus what were the options there? And those are things that you should be thinking about strategically from a technology standpoint, not just assuming you're going to buy off the shelf or assuming that you're MSP might go build it for you somehow.
Matt Dressel (24:44):
But yeah, and if you've chosen the generic office products, so office automation products, not just Microsoft products, but any of them as the thing that you're going to use, you're like either there doesn't exist one in the marketplace or the ones in the marketplace aren't right, or they cost too much money or whatever, that's fine. You need to do all the things we're talking about to make it work because the alternative is exactly what you were talking about, Mitch, which is great. We want to use SharePoint. We're using SharePoint. SharePoint's the best thing in the world or teams is the best thing in the world unless you articulate exactly how teams should be used for your business, it is up to every single individual user to figure out how that tool fits in their day. And that is one of the biggest challenges because doing that creates chaos and it creates different people doing different things all the time, people having different outcomes. Being one person might be love it and excited and it's amazing. Somebody else might hate it and I don't ever want to use it. Somebody else might be, eh, it's okay, but I don't understand how it fits. Right?
You're teeing up, call out to Matt did a webinar recently about taming the team's chaos. I
Matt Dressel (26:03):
Mean in teams in particular, we've talked about it a little bit, but I mean it's across
You find yourself yourself in that situation. That might be a good resource for you. I'm going to try to summarize this section as Microsoft has all these tools. This is in our ecosystem. Microsoft has all these tools. They aim themselves at the enterprise, primarily try to serve the other areas too, but there's nuance to it all and it's hard to serve all those different levels. And then we have managed service providers who try to enable people to have those tools but probably don't have the know-how of teaching people how to use those tools. And then there's a disconnection from the strategy of the business of using those tools and people think they need to just use training or get training in order to use those tools, and then it all just kind of falls flat.
Matt Dressel (26:54):
Okay. Those are a lot of the why's. Let's articulate the pitfalls where you started. So the pitfalls are people are just doing stuff random and different. You spend a bunch of money onto the technology and you aren't getting the value out of it. You implemented something because the tech people really wanted it or somebody really wanted it. Somebody thought it was really cool, but nobody's actually using it in the first one. People are using it, but it's not being very efficient. And the second one just nobody's home. Nobody's using it at all. Those would probably be some of the big major pitfalls that you're going to have if you're not doing it right.
Let's wrap up with one of the prompts here is cultural transformation. Let's talk about the culture outside of, in addition to the technology adoption process here, discuss the role of leadership, employee empowerment and adaptability and fostering a modern culture
Matt Dressel (27:56):
Leadership. It has to come from leadership, it has to say it has to start at the top where people are giving goals that are relatable to people not
From the IT department,
Matt Dressel (28:04):
Not from the IT department, from the business. Now the IT department can create goals that support those goals that are more specific to them, but it starts with leadership, providing good goals, not just providing the goals but explaining the goals and explaining the why for the goals. The second one was employee empowerment. Employee empowerment. So that's part of what I was just talking about, empowering either leaders below the executive team or even all the way down to set goals and to trust that they understand the intent of the goals that you're trying to accomplish and empowering them to say within your scope of what you're doing, raise up how you can make it better and accomplish those things, right? It's okay to say, Hey, I was doing this last year and it doesn't sound like that's the appropriate thing anymore. Either what should I be doing?
Or Hey, these are the things I think I should be doing. How does that sound everyone? It's going to cost money or it's going to whatever those things are, and it's okay to come back and say, no, no, no, no, let's refocus that. That's okay too, but empowering them to say, we're all adults here. You know what the goals are. You understand your position in the organization, let's move forward. And then the last thing, adaptability is really about that feedback. It's about when somebody does say that and say, Hey, this is what we want to do, saying, okay, I get it. Even up at the leadership level, hearing that feedback back to you that says, Hey, we want to accomplish this thing and somebody's telling me it's really going to cost this much to make it happen. Oh, okay, let me process that. Let me understand that. Let me understand the pros versus cons. What needs to change? Does my willingness to invest need to change? Does the goal need to change? Does the way that we're approaching that goal need to change? Do I need to instruct people to investigate alternative solutions? What type of thing should I be doing as a leader or a manager or even a person working at the ground level? What should I be doing to change and make that better? I
Think it's important to articulate this is not set a goal and try to achieve it at all costs. There's different levels that you can, different thresholds you can build in for yourself that kind of protect you of is this goal something that affects a lot of people and so it's really important. Is it something that we're stretching ourselves and we recognize we're stretching ourselves and we want to try to do it because it's exciting and gets people motivated and involving that in the context of, yeah, sorry, I can't work overtime in order to do this arbitrary goal. It doesn't make sense. Were you going to say something?
Yeah. I think those last two things, they all three points of the subsidiary structure of responsibility when it comes to goals, right? You talk about adaptability, it's not meant to be tyrannical, like the goals aren't set at the top and you're going to meet the goal. We're all going to set the goals together and we're all going to agree that they all add up and connect it to each other and you can, within your realm of responsibility, you can change the goals.
It reminds me of that tree analogy from a conference we were at recently where so often a company is viewed as a pyramid. The top tells the next level what to do and then they tell the next level. And as opposed to what if you kind of flipped that on its head and said the roots are bound by leadership and their mindset and the foundation that they build for their team, and from then on it's up to the branches and the twigs and the leaves to all grow from that area into their own. The tree, the trunk doesn't tell that leaf where exactly to
Go and if you don't allow that to happen, it will succumb to the weight and die.
It reminds me a lot of, I give, I plug Seth Godin's tribe's book quite a bit for someone who might find themselves in a situation where they feel like they're just being told what to do and they don't have power to go check out that book. It's good about leading from where you are.
Matt Dressel (32:42):
So we've talked a lot about culture and a lot about leadership change and how that approaches it. I just want to wrap this up and wrap this piece of it up and talk about it and relate it back to technology. Because we are a technology organization and we aren't trying to change everything about an organization's culture or strategy related to goals and goal setting and how we're not going to be talking to you about how you just switched to a tree instead of a pyramid. That's not what we're going to do. The thing that we're trying to call out is that in order to be effective in implementing technology to modernize your workplace, you have to have a clear understanding of what you're trying to get out of using the technology. So I don't care how you do it, I don't care what methodology you use to do it, as long as you have a clear goal that you're trying to accomplish and you can articulate the value of that goal of accomplishing that goal, we're all good. Everything we've been talking about is the fact that many, many, many organizations don't do that. They don't have a clear understanding and that is one of the reasons why their modern workplace isn't really a modern workplace and they're not using technology to the level that they could be or should be.
Amen. I don't know how to make this not a plug for us, but genuinely I want to ask this question. How does someone decide what part of that journey of how do I need to have a goal before I have someone help me?
Matt Dressel (34:16):
I mean in our
Case, carry that
Matt Dressel (34:17):
Out from our case. That's one of the first things that we're going to be talking about is what your goals are, how this maps. We'll be helping you kind of figure that out. I would recommend before someone thinks about using a technology and before they engage a vendor who may or may not understand how to have that conversation that they understand, you figure it out, right? I would always recommend before you contact us, if you have that sorted out, it's going to make the conversation really easy. It's going to make your assessment of webinar we're a good fit for you. Really easy. It's going to make my assessment of whether or not the customer's a good fit for us. Really easy if they're saying, for example, if they say, we got to get off our shared drives and I just got to move everything, and that is the goal and people have done this before.
Literally this has happened where their goal is purely technology and they have a good reason for it. It fits a goal. Their goal is we're spending too much money or our data center is old and I have to buy new servers and I know it will be cheaper if I put it in the cloud. That's fine. That's totally fine. We may not be a great fit for you. We don't have a group of a hundred people that just come in and migrate things to OneDrive and just move all of that data regardless of what people have and regardless of how long they've had it and regardless of where it should really be stored, we're going to step back and say, Hey, wait a minute. Have you guys done a content audit? Have you looked at the content that you have? Is that really where you should be?
That's how we're we're going to be moving forward. And that doesn't necessarily align with what your stated objective is, right? And that doesn't mean that if that's your goal, you shouldn't come talk to us. I'm happy to have the conversation, but there may be a significant disconnect in what we would try to do for that customer versus what they think they need. And if they truly are like, that's in the future, that's what we need in the future. We need to figure out the strategy, but right now today we just got to shut off these servers. We may not be the best fit for you. I don't know. Right. Okay.
I'm going to leave a couple resources here because you made me remember that I wrote a blog about aligning change to your business goals and three different methods that you can use in order to just get something out on paper and try to articulate things. We'll leave that in the show notes. And then I also realized we have a scorecard, which you may have seen promoted other places, which sort of grades you on how modern is your workplace. That breaks this down into 20 questions and you can get
Matt Dressel (37:00):
A score. Yeah, a grade. Yep. We'll grade you. All that stuff just kind of gives context to all these different areas that we're talking about. So we'll leave that in the show notes as well. We got through four out of 10 bullet points from chat GPT, so that's pretty good for pulling this out of thin air. Obviously it's things that we've talked about in some form or fashion, but it's always kind of mixed together from a different frame of reference and I think it was great. We'll see you next
Time for another 90 minutes where we cover the other
Six. Hopefully this does an okay job to articulate what a real modern workplace workplaces to what people think is really a modern workplace. So thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.