Technology: the ultimate double-edged sword. Some days it's our best friend and other days, our worst nightmare. But, in regards to connecting people to one another, is technology the answer? Communication via technology isn't here to replace the in-person connection, but rather help us when the in-person option isn't always available.
In episode 16 of the Make Others Successful podcast, Mitch, Matt, and Mike dive into the ins and outs of communicating and continuing to connect through technology.
Welcome back, everyone to make others successful. A podcast where we aim to make you successful in your workplace and in turn cascade that down and make others successful and them make others successful. On and on. So today we have a new topic for you. It is how to keep the human connection in technology, or how to use technology to keep a human connection. And at first I think it may sound like those things are maybe conflicting, but today we wanted to dig into how actually they can help each other in the nuance around all of that.
Or, or you may think that we're just gonna talk about how to play board games electronically so that you can still keep connection with the peop with your team. Right. But no, that's, that's really not it. Right.
So where do we wanna start?
I think the best thing to recognize is that this isn't a new thing. Like a lot of people look at this and they might go, yeah. Like, you know, COVID happened and remote work and all these things, and it's different today. And yeah, it is different, but the same thing happened when there was the telephone mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the same thing happened when email happened, and the same thing happened. Like we have been on a progression where technology is permeating our lives. Right. Right. And what we do and how we communicate. Uh, and it is different today. Like there is different, like video calling is different than the telephone, you know, chat, you know, instant chatting is different than text messaging or phone calling. So it is different, but you know, we all should recognize it's, this has been happening for a very long time. Sure.
Yeah. Every, every generation has, there's some new thing that becomes ubiquitous with that generation. Yeah. Right. Like my kids, it's like second nature to them, just like learning English to use a touchscreen.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well you and you and I, we were on the cusp of the, the cell phone. Right. You know, when we, when we were, when
I resisted it, Mitch, I'm, I'm, that I'm old enough to have resisted it. Mitch,
I think cell phones probably was like a thing pretty much the whole time.
Right. I'd wait till I was 16. My mom had one of those like nok phones that you could play snake on. Yeah, I remember that vividly. And then I had to wait, we were still at the, the phase where high school, when you start to drive is kind of the phase where you,
But it was a parent choice. Like when me, for me, it's like you couldn't afford the bag phone that went in the car. <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like that was like, you couldn't, you just couldn't do that.
Well, I remember wanting the razor and Yeah. Yeah. We either couldn't afford it or something. Yeah. So I got the, the less cool one. But,
So like even in rj, like you mentioned that for, for me, I would say the cell phone was a big thing. And then since then, since we're tech guys, we're tech heads, you know, text message or text messaging, instant messaging, like all of that stuff has, you know, for us, I think our first job we were like, AOL instant Messenger was like, why aren't we? Like, I'm not emailing people. I want to use like, some other method to do it.
Yeah. Yeah. That was so long ago. But like doing what we do, we've had to stay up to speed. We have to embrace a lot of the new stuff
And you know, as it comes out. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's all brought to light kind of as people are getting back into the workplace a little bit. And sometimes there's resistance where people say, oh, I'm gonna be remote forever. Or navigating that conversation is tough sometimes. Yeah, for
Sure. I also think it's different than what it was when Covid started. Like when Covid started, it was such a stark change, like an absolute change. Like nobody went into the office or everybody went into the office cuz you were critical care and like you or you were, you know, critical position you had to be in. There wasn't a like in between. Right. And so the focus at that moment was all about when if we would've had that this conversation back then it would be about, you know, our among us post like, hey, how do you still promote the, the culture? Right. Right. And it's, and it was focused exclusively on doing that completely remote. Yeah. Right now it's, it is a little different because we're in a, in a, in a space where I don't think you can ever go back to where it was, nor that doesn't happen very often anyways. Like we talked about, it's been a progression anyways. So what does it really look like and what is the, what should you be thinking about related to, uh, technology and how we are as humans in interacting as humans?
Right. One thing I've seen is, yeah, when Covid started, we originally had only one standup a week. Yeah. And we moved out to the three standups a week. So we basically just messed around for an hour, basically talking to each other, catching up, doing the things that we normally would've done at the water cooler. And then we did Yeah. The among us where we could kind of have some fun at the end of a, a Monday and, and play together. But now as we're coming back into the office, I've noticed our stand ups getting a little shorter, a little more intentional just because we're around each other more. Right. And so I think we're, we're still in this stage where we're saying, okay, where does technology fit in all of what we do? And other, another thing we did is like invested in our conference room.
Yeah. So, uh, really one of the most important things to realize is that the way that you interact with technology is different depending on the technology. So, you know, when you, when you pick up the phone, you say, hello, this is like a before caller id, you said, hello, this is Matt Dressel. Right. Right. You know, when with caller id, people won't even do that anymore. Right. Because they know who it is. They'll be like, Hey John, like, how are things going? Right. It's the same thing with like instant message chat. Right. Like, I don't, you don't, there's a casualness to the way that is mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is both a plus and a minus. You need to always be thinking about how you're communicating with people in that techno, you know, using the piece of technology in a way that is, is appropriate for that conversation.
And when I say that, I mean a couple different things. People have a real tendency in email to be very formal and very, uh, closed, if you will. Right. One of the things that is really valuable about chat messaging as an example, is the real time nature. And you should try to treat it, especially if you're talking about with a coworker or somebody that you have a real personal connection with. Have a personal connection. Right. Like, be casual. Don't be afraid to, to, to, you know, send a giffy and have a joke or be like, it's okay. Right. He's my favorite. It is not. Um, it is, there are times where you do need to be a little more formal and more, you know, specific with what's going on. But if you're always formal with someone, especially with someone that you work closely with mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you're gonna lose that connection with that person. Right. Um, because that's the only experience they're gonna have.
I've seen a handful of times when we have someone new starting and they'll send me a DM and they say hi at Mitch, yada, yada yada. As opposed to just like the yada yada yada part. Like they don't actually need to frame the conversation or anything, it's just a chat message. Like, just send it. You don't have to address me. You,
You brought up a second thing, which is we have new employees a lot that will direct message me about stuff. And I'm almost immediately will be like, I will force them to go to a public channel to have the conversation. Yeah. I'm like, there's like, which is a, like if you're doing direct chat messages, that's maybe not appropriate, but we use channels all the time. Like that is our main form of communication at our organization. That's where probably 90% of our digital communication happens. Quite frankly. We don't do email very much internally. It's either that or through our intranet. And so, uh, in, in that way people are used to trying to protect themselves from saying something's wrong, saying something that's inappropriate. And there's two things I'll say about this that's really important. One is the individual. Don't be afraid to put it in the public channel.
That's what it's there for. Yep. You don't know who else will listen to it and have another p piece of response that you didn't think of. Uh, the other thing is, a, as a leader, you should be encouraging people to do that. You should look at every time you get a direct message and say, is there a reason for this to be a direct message? If it's, if there's not encourage them to put it somewhere else. Yeah. Because you're encouraging them to have a more broad communication. You're encouraging them to talk about an issue when somebody else is listening from the other side and chimes in with a thoughtful piece of information that's valuable to
Them. Yeah. One example that we do is like, we have a new hires channel. Yeah. So anyone that's new to the team, we, that's the only way that they get in that channel. And it's intended for, if you have a question that you would perceive as a new hire type question, put it in there so then they can actually scroll back and see whenever people are new Yeah. They, they have all that knowledge base right there. I think
The other thing, like you talked about as a leader in encouraging people to do something, you know, post stuff in a public channel. I have been kind of evaluating Slack and teams, uh, from a leadership perspective in terms of what conversations should I be having with my people to encourage them. And sometimes that's in a public channel, right? Where you want everyone to see. Other times it may be a little bit more personal and you do have a direct message. But I think as leaders in a world where people are more remote, more comfortable with something like Teams or Slack as a communication tool, I think we need to look at those tools as an opportunity to like have that conversation. Cuz usually those conversations are something like, like you might have a conversation in passing or maybe you get to go to lunch every so often with somebody. But when people are not in the office regularly, those conversations are, those opportunities are more rare. And so being comfortable having a little conversa, a short conversation in Slack or something like that where you can say, Hey, I saw what you did. That was really awesome. Yeah. Keep doing it. You know, that's a great job. I've tried to be very conscious of using those tools effectively in that way.
Yeah. What you said is exactly right. Which is that the other thing to think about, I kind of mentioned it a little bit with the giffy thing, but it's not just about doing, executing a task like it is about everything. Right? Yeah. Like, you should be feel comfortable having those conversations. Now I'm gonna step back from that a minute cause we've talked about different ways. There are some things that unless you're absolutely, like there is no other choice, don't use chat to do it. Schedule of virtual meeting go on person. Like if I, if if you're gonna meet with this per, if you're gonna be in the office tomorrow with them and you want to have a confrontation about something that you're, you're concerned with, right? So confront someone a little more about something that you know they did that you didn't approve of or whatever. And you can do it in person. Do it in person. It, it makes the most sense. It's what you should do. Right?
Well I I'll tell you right now that you have to mix that stuff up. Yes. Because if you develop a habit of doing one thing one way and one thing the other way, the minute somebody gets an invite from you for a personal meeting, they're be like, oh no, I'll bring them box.
Yeah. So I don't, I don't mean it like that. I mean it like, uh, I mean it just like, you have the opportunity take a hold of it. Right. You know, and, and, and the big thing I would say about that too is like, uh, there are still things that, you know, in these new tools you can convert from text chat to a virtual call or something else very easily do that. Like it's not working via chat. Some something's getting lost in translation, which happens. It's a very common thing. You know, go, go switch over to another medium. Uh, the last, oh,
Go ahead. In, in that, in that vein, like that's one of the reasons like hugely positive for Slack. Their huddle feature isn't is awesome for that. Andy, you said they're having a chat with three people and you're not getting the point across or somebody's disconnected, like jumping a huddle and everybody sees the huddle's going on One click. Yeah, one click. Very nice feature.
I actually just finished up a blog about teams and the different types of meetings that you can do. And that the channels meeting feature is something that I mentioned there. And it again, I just like hit my head against it cuz it's, it's like one extra step that takes, it's one extra step that is required to get in that setting. And I really like slacks. One like flip of a switch and it's on.
So let's start the clock ticking. Today is what? 12th? Today is the 12th. Yeah. 12th of January. 2023. How many months before Microsoft turns that into one click?
I don't know.
I'm not gonna hold my breath.
Yeah. I don't know. It's it's their, their vision into their feature offering is a difficult thing. I
Actually just saw Slack as getting rid of their call feature in lieu of
Using huddles exclusively. Yeah. Yeah. Which is
Cool. Well, well, yeah. Yes. <laugh>. So the one last thing I wanna talk about, about chat or any, any medium where you can't see the person that you're talking to or hear their inflection is people have a huge problem with making an assumption about what the other person means. Every person should be giving the other person the benefit of the doubt. Right. And I know that can be exhausting. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I especially if you know the person and you kind of feel like you know exactly what they mean. But there are so many times where people don't communicate effectively in the written form, uh, what they're feeling. Either because they feel like they can't or they feel like, or they're just bad at it. Right. Like they, they feel like I'm putting something down and I have to protect myself. And so I add all of this stuff around it when that's not really what they mean. But give them the benefit of the doubt.
Like how about when somebody has a habit of putting dot, dot, dot at the end Yeah. Yeah. To hold the conversation. Like, don't say anything else. Cause I got something got,
It's important to
Say a affair. Here it comes.
Yeah. Grammar police swooped in on Mike on that one. He skips all forms of punctuation for dot, dot, dot. And so that's just kind of our fun little poke. I'm
Eternally informal in a
Chat. Well, like he was saying all that stuff is why maybe email feels more formal. It's like, yeah, it takes some of the emotion out of it. Cover all your bases and, but at the same time, really hard to develop connections.
Seriously. We were, we were joking about the do dot thing a little bit and like, but that's part of it. Like somebody who is used to doing dot, dot.as like a, but I like, it's like a sh like you, so here's like truly this is the difference. He's using it like your shrug, like Mitch will finish a thing and like have a, have a really like thoughtful comment and then be like, shrug <laugh>. And I'm like, what is that was ready. I was like following right along ready to go do something and then you shrug. What
Is this? I know, I know it. With a grain salt. I know he just means do.dot. Yeah.
Yeah. But like
Emojis are so in Mike, people do that. So
People communicate differently and you need to allow for that. So that's the last thing I'll say about chat. Let's talk about video calls and video chat, video conferencing and all that kind of stuff. So the things I would say about that is you need to understand what people are where, like where people are coming from. You know, there's a, there was a big um, debate conversation about what you should do. Because what was happening, especially when it was purely remote, is people were getting scheduled in back to back to back to back to back to back to back to back meetings. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there was no time to go to the bathroom. There was no time to eat lunch and there's no time to, like it's, if somebody is go is in that situation and they gotta go take like, or a couple minutes late, it is what it is. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's okay. Right. Uh, one
Of my biggest tells when we were interviewing people is if my daughter would come in and like interrupt or something how they react. Two
Act. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like it's, you know, obviously if you're doing a presentation for a half million dollar project, right? Like that's a different kind of thing. Number one, maybe you should be in person, right? But like meeting with somebody about a topic, it's okay. Build a little bit of b buffer in what you're doing in those meetings. Into those meetings. Which quite frankly wasn't that different than how people were doing in-person meetings before. Right. Like sometimes people get booked back to back to back and if they have to travel from one spot to the other and the onus is honestly on the person who's attending to have some of that too. Right. Like there's an expectation that if they know that's happening they should kinda let you know or give you a heads up or something. Sure. But you know, it's not that big of a deal. You know, it's not a deal breaker to have an extra minute or two.
What about the implications of different levels of technology or technology ability across meeting like attendees? Like we have a variety of experiences cuz not everyone's the same. One of the things that we did over the course of the last two years is we upped our game in terms of the technology. We have new equipment in the conference rooms. Yep. Stuff that gets better. You know, better video, better audio makes the experience for the people on the other end better. Um, but we still have experience today where we have customers that, um, don't have a great headset, don't have a great mic. They're hard to hear. I had a colleague just yesterday with a customer where we went halfway through the call hearing every other word and I was tracking, but other people on our end weren't tracking and they fi finally had to say something.
And it to me, like, I think there's still like an etiquette involved. Like what, what does it look like? Be comfortable saying, hey, so-and-so can you Right. Fix this because we can't hear you. Like there are all, so number one, be aware of your, your own situation and what you're coming with and try to like care for others, right. You want your audio in your video to be good. But then the other thing is don't be afraid to say, Hey, we can't hear you. Is there something you can do? Can I help you fix it? Because what that person's saying may be critical.
I <laugh> I often have fun, mostly to our team internally. I give them a hard time when they have bad audio and like every telling Lucas, Lucas, it feels like you're in the other room and he is like, oh wait, let me, and he adjusted. Yes. Switch is mic and then that's fine. But
The other area where this is even a little bit messier is now that we're back in the office, you have scenarios where you've got nine people in the conference room having a conversation Yeah. And two people on a, on the video end of it remote and who
Aren't really contributing Yeah.
Who either aren't contributing or feel like they can't get an A worded X wise. Yeah. Yeah. So there's all of those things to be aware of now too.
So let's loop back on that. Number one, personally or as if you're a, if you're involved in a business, you should purchase quality equipment for your people or for yourself. Like straight up like end, no dot, dot period. <laugh>, you should get quality. Now that doesn't mean hundreds or thousands of dollars necessarily, but you should get quality equipment because it makes a big difference. Right? Having a nice video camera, having a nice mic.
Often those time those things are both exclusive, like they're different things, right? Correct. Yeah. Not very often. Can you get an all-in-one that
Camera that has a mic and great. Yeah. Especially for your purpose, right? Like if you're getting a camera for a conference room, that you might be able to get something that has some of those things, right? Yep. If you're getting one for your workstation, it's a different kind of setup. Uh, and you know, the, the, the other thing I would say is, uh, exactly what Mike said, you need to, you need to try to figure out that right way to have that conversation if you're, if somebody's having a problem and what to do about it. Right. Can the meeting continue without that voice? Most of the times I would say probably not. If it could, I would question why they were invited to the meeting in the first place. Right? Like, what are they there for? What are they contributing? Right? Uh, so, you know, a lot of the video, the other thing about the, the video calling or conferencing is, uh, video, turning on your video, enabling your video when it makes sense can be a powerful tool.
Uh, you know, I oftentimes in the morning in my office space, I have a problem with sunlight and so I often leave my camera off and turns into me mostly having it off. But when we're meeting with customers, like I think yesterday we were on a call with a potential vendor. You know, I turned it on. It wasn't the great, the greatest video. I didn't have the right camera cooked up, but I turned it on. It was not super comfortable for me cuz I didn't like the video. But I think it was valuable for that Right. For that person to be able to see me even in the degraded form that it was For sure.
I thought you were stunning. Yeah.
<laugh>. Well, sometimes I have a halo in that kind of situation.
Yeah. The sunlight comes
In. It's like I'm a,
I'm an angel.
<laugh> part of the holy family or something. <laugh>.
He's Saint SharePoint. Yeah.
Oh yeah. For those that didn't know <laugh>. Oh
Yeah. So like, you know, I'm not saying you have to be on camera all the time. Like that's, that's not, I don't, I wouldn't say that you always have to be, but when you can be, you should try.
Yeah. The only other thing I wanted to cover today was, uh, the whole idea around investing in your technology and for example, like your intranet in order to then make the best out of times where you are dealing with people. So like there the information being one place so that you're not only responsible for just dumping information on someone when they're, uh, meeting with you.
Yeah. Let's talk about, let's talk about intranets and other tools in general. So we talked about instant messaging, which is like realtime chat. So realtime tech stuff. We talked about video and audio calling. This would be another branch, which is not a lot of people probably don't think about it too much as it relates to this, but having a medium and a form of, of communication that is a little bit more, um, uh, user subscribed to it unless, unless they're forced into it. Self, self-serve is hugely valuable. Right. You know, I've been talking to a number of, you know, even personal friends who, you know, they started a new job and they're like, man, I wish there was a way to me for me to know more about my job and not have to deal with it. Juxtapose that with, you know, we've hired several people now and you know, I think two or three of them have had given us great feedback on the information that we have on our intranet.
And it's not just intranet. It's not like when people hear that, they say, oh, you mean links to your resources. Oh, you mean you know your HR documents? No, we mean like, there's a birthday breakfast that happened last week and here's some pictures of it. Oh, this is what happened at the last quarterly update for the last three years. Right, right. Go back and look at what happened last three years. You know, what happened at a retro, what happened on a tubing trip this last like very more social things. When I say social, I don't necessarily mean like chat or like, you know, Facebook or, you know, those types of things. I mean like
The business is
Social. Yeah. The business has a social atmosphere and it's about those things. Right.
So much of our culture is communicated through our story mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that's all about telling the story. Right.
Which the only way you could do that otherwise is to meet with somebody seven times and tell the story and tell the story over and over and over again. Right. Which is fine. And we should do like, to be clear, well, a hundred percent clear, an intranet is not a replacement for that human connection. It is simply a way to allow someone to subscribe to
That. Yeah. The important thing to recognize is when in that situation in particular, you're not telling the story, you are integrating someone with the story.
<affirmative>. Right? They're coming, they're joining the stream. Right. Yeah. They're contributing. And I think that's a, that's a big difference from just like, here's the history lesson, right.
When you were talking part of what you were saying, I'm not sure whether or not you meant this, but I think it's a really valuable piece, which is the purely the technology thing. We talked about buying like hardware tech, but you know, it was a big deal to move from AOL instant Messenger to Skype for business and then to move to teams and Slack.
I don't know if I should feel embarrassed by the AOL reference or not. Yeah.
Matt, why do you keep pointing at Mike when you're talking about aol?
Because it's we're shared experience. We both like, that was our thing. Like the company didn't have that as a policy, but we in the tech group were like, we want to chat about lots of stuff we like, like we like each other. We used to have a l l instant messenger. It's how we chat. We had a, we actually were managing a team in India, in in Pakistan. It was our way of communicating with them.
Was Mike always waiting for your door swing open sound to play when you signed online?
<laugh>? Yeah. Not mine, but yeah. Like, yeah, it, like, it was just a different thing. Like my point is invest in technology, invest in technology doesn't just mean the hardware. It also means there's gonna be a new thing that comes out. Invest in like SharePoint, invest in upgrading from old SharePoint intranet to a new SharePoint intranet. Invest in, you know, when teams get a, gets a new update and it has a new thing, invest in that. If teams isn't working for you, invest in looking at something different. Right. Investigate a different tool that might work better for you. Right.
Like this conversation can go all kinds of places, right. Like you're using Excel spreadsheets. That was technology. Yeah. Like at one point in time, 15 years ago, that was the best thing you could find to run your business. Right? Yeah. And now there's tons of other options Yeah. That you should be considering.
Yeah. And, and so I think my point is simply when people hear us talk about technology and talk about investing in that technology, uh, we don't just mean hardware, we don't just mean cooler mics and better video. Right. Everything. Like there's so many things in our, in a business that are technology that is changing the way employees are experiencing work. And you should be investing in those on a regular basis. Yep. It doesn't have to be millions of dollars. It doesn't have to be all the time, but you should be looking at it on a regular basis.
Yeah. One of the things we evaluated in the recent, in our recent history is what should we use in terms of company credit card? Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. And we chose a solution that was very tech heavy, has a lot of opportunity for automation and makes the lives easier for all of us. And I was resistant because I hate debt. Right. I didn't like having credit cards. Yeah. But as it turns out, that solution is so much better all across the board for everyone involved. And it allows us to track receipts and like do all kinds of things that we were doing in a much more manual way.
Yeah. But it is a very different way. Like if we had a traditional finance officer, they probably would've been completely against it because it is not normal. It is not how a lot of other corporate credit credit cards are managed.
Yeah. Most corporate credit cards are all managed through the bank where the business does business, right? Yeah. And in this particular case, it's, it's separate and distinct from from our bank.
Yeah. I love it. For, for anyone curious, we use RAMP for our credit card. Um, it's been awesome. Yeah. Like the, we create separate cards for different subscriptions. They all have different limits
And, and the powers in our hands. We don't have to call a banker. Right?
Yeah. You spin up a new card in a couple minutes. So it's been fun and I'll just like close, close the bookend here. It has been awesome to see people onboarding and taking all the information in and learning more about us because as we grow, it becomes harder and harder for people to know everything about us simply through osmosis. And so having it somewhere has been very valuable so that when we are meeting with them, they get it already. They kind of understand us and we get to engage at that level where we kind of get each other. It, it reminds me a little bit of, uh, like parasocial relationships where you listen to a podcast or watch a show and you feel like you know that person. They don't know who you are, but you kind of get them and you feel like you're friends. It reminds me a little bit about that because they, they come to learn so much about us. So it feels more natural when we're together.
You're exactly right. We actually got feedback specifically the thing you're talking about today from one of our new people. They basically Facebook stalked us Right. And got to know us before Right. They joined. Right. Or before they even had a conversation with us and they were much more comfortable. They're like, oh yeah, I, these people are real people, right? Yep. And so yeah, don't underestimate your ability to, uh, communicate to even future people. Um, that'll be connected with you.
The one other thing that I uh, I think is also important is to think about technology as a way to interact with people the way that you want to interact with people. You know, we went to a leadership conference and they talked a lot about how to build that relationship with people, build a personal relationship with people, and all those things apply. It's just a different format. Right? Right. And, and it's things like knowing something about them, asking deeper questions when you get, when you want to talk, when you know how's your day is not super deep. Right. You know, what can you ask and what do you know about them that brings you closer together? What was
Your favorite part of today?
Yeah. And it can be simple like that, or it can be, you know, you know that they're working on a specific project. You know, how's that project going? You're working on it at home. Right. Uh, and, and it, you should look at these tools as just another way to make that happen when you can't meet someone in person, it just doesn't make sense.
Right. And honestly, we've been, uh, onboarding mar a marketing coordinator and every time I'm brain dumping on them, I feel this pressure to, oh man, if she didn't write that down or I don't have it documented somewhere, it's on her to remember that. And that's not, that's not helpful and that's not a good way to go. And so I've been like storing these things in the back of my mind. I need to go put this out there. I need to go put this out there and store all the information so that she actually has a reference to all that. So then it's less reliant on me reminding her every little thing all the time. It's, it's just more wealth of information sharing altogether. Yep. So yeah. And I'll, I'll just close with, we want the deeper connections sooner, so let's skip some of the, how's the weather, the, the mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the small talk and,
And be genuine
And using technology to accomplish that has been really great. It is not a replacement, but it's been really helpful. Agreed. Cool. Well, I think that's all we have for today. Thanks guys for, for joining me. And um, yeah, we'll talk again soon. Thanks
Mitch. Yep. Cool. Bye guys.
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