Good Enough Used to Work. It Doesn't Anymore.

Mitch: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Make Others Successful, a podcast where we share insights, stories, and strategies to help make you successful in your workplace. My name is Mitch. If we haven't had a chance to meet, I'm joined by Mike and Matt. The usuals.

We we have an interesting topic today that we aren't quite settled on a name for yet. So we're gonna, like you'll you'll know what the title is based on what you just clicked on.

Matt: Oh, we won't.

Mitch: But the things that are rolling around in our head are things like, no one's coming to save you or you are on your own, but that's maybe not a bad thing. Like, it's it's a it's a kind of weird lens to look at things through, but the core of the concept is that oftentimes, even in life, not just work, when we have a problem, it's really easy to look at it and say, oh, well, that will resolve itself or someone will come in and fix it and make it better, and that's okay. And I'll I'll just I'll just wait it out. And it's really easy to look at problems at work similarly, where you just get by or someday it'll be annoying enough for someone to come in and fix it. And if you're in any sort of leadership position, that is not exactly the way we would encourage you to look at it naturally, but the thought is more that a lot of these tools have gotten easier to approach.

All the things that we talk about makes it easier to automate your business and streamline your processes and communicate and collaborate and all those things. But that doesn't mean it's done for you. AI is attempting to take the place of critical thinking and do things for you, but it's not there. And so we're in this world where you still need to do the work even though the tools are easy, things life becomes easier. And so we're just gonna be talking about that.

Hopefully, that was an okay summary, but It's little long. Yeah. Let's talk about why this problem is worse than it used to be. Is this something that always existed or it has changed over time? Or how do we think about what things used to be maybe in the old technology or lack of technology world versus today?

Matt: I mean, at its core, I think the topic that we're talking about has always been there. However, it was different in regards to how it worked. When you think about technology, if I go back to the phone, if I go back to the telephone, if I go back to the car, if I go back to these things, they transformed everything, and getting a car didn't solve all your problems. In fact, it created other problems, like how do I fix it? How do I make sure I have gas for it?

Or in the modern world, I bought an electric vehicle that's going to solve all my problems. Well, it doesn't really. Creates other problems potentially, right? Technology have

Mitch: put in new electrical

Matt: panel And you and to plan your trips around, you know, maybe sparse access to a service that can charge your vehicle, right? Or the time it takes to charge your vehicle. So I don't think it's new. I don't think it's going anywhere. However, I think we hear it a lot from people.

It feels like it's more in the business world, in the way people are working with technology. And I think it has a few different components to it. The first of which is that there are so many options and there are so many ways that you can work better. Choose the tool and you can do better, but to do better, you have to change your mindset, you have to change what you're doing, you have to adapt to what that is. And too often in the recent past, I think a lot of the technology in business in particular has been, you know, you spend $5,000,000 on a brand new ERP system and it does change things because everybody's coming into this monolithic thing and you're all moving as a whole business in this way.

And now it's more like knowledge workers and employees are being enabled by these tools to do their job better, and that is different, right? They're not fitting into a process, a machine that is being upgraded. The machine isn't getting upgraded and I'm just pulling some different levels. I'm giving some new tools that are a little bit unformed, and now I can go do more with those tools.

Mitch: Yeah. As you were talking about that, it made me realize in the past, there was maybe a bigger world of knowledge workers, everyday workers, plus particularly specialized people to help with particular problems.

Matt: Yep.

Mitch: And as technology has become more approachable, that gap starts to lower and people say, oh, maybe I could just do this myself.

Matt: Yep.

Mitch: And as they start to flirt with that, all of a sudden, everybody kind of needs to jump up that level and do it themselves. And so it doesn't feel like the gap is smaller, but it requires more of people all around.

Matt: Yep.

Mitch: It's a weird dichotomy of like, because tools got better, people need to learn more and have more critical thinking or

Matt: The expectation is more. I think that's the big thing. Like, it's not like you need If you don't want to, there's still lots of opportunity. But if you want to be The expectation from organizations and from leaders and from the market, if you will, is that you're able to be effective with these tools. Right?

You're able to not just do the one thing that you're doing, but effectively leverage them to do even more things.

Mike: I think this problem also is it gets worse in a scenario where your workforce is aging. And so not to be ageist or anything like that, but I think there's a like as you get older, you get comfortable. You like things the way they are and when things change, that can be daunting, it can be a challenge. And so one of the things that I've tried to push myself to be willing to do is always to learn, like just be open to that. That's a mindset shift so that you don't get left behind, so that you're not in that, you you don't have that bitter attitude about these new things.

And you need to look at them as value adds to your your work life, to your, personal life. They make your the human condition better as a whole. They can, and you should look for those opportunities and be open to learning the new things. And I think that's easier for the younger generation. Right?

People that are coming into the workforce is like, these they're used to these tools.

Matt: There's an expectation.

Mike: There's an expectation there. But I think, you know, as as people grow in their roles and then, you know, they're constantly every year or every two years they're challenged with this new thing's happening. Right now AI is the big one. Like, assured there's plenty of older people in the workforce right now who are looking at looking at that and saying either they're intimidated by it or they're like, oh, it's it's a bunch of garbage. It's no use to me.

And they're missing an opportunity there because there is a lot of value that can be had.

Matt: So the age conversation is an interesting one. I don't wanna get on too much of a change in,

Mike: but Well, to be clear, we're the old guys.

Matt: Yeah, we're getting there.

Mike: Yeah. For sure. Yeah, you are.

Matt: It's an interesting thing because I see there being the biggest difference in that, the age thing. It's not as simple as like, oh, I wanna keep learning new things. The modern technologies that are being integrated look more like the social media and the other technologies that the youth is learning in school and in their daily activities and what's going on. And the older generations, you know, they just don't have that background of experience. But at the same time, you have different problems, right?

I experience on many occasions where someone who is very well at using some of the tools, but they treat it like it's their personal social media, and so then the way they use it actually isn't effective and is counterproductive to, you know, they know how to click all the buttons and know how to do all the things, but their philosophy about it is markedly wrong. And then you've got people in the older generation that have the concept and the strategies are like perfect, just what you want, but they don't know how to apply that to the tools. And then you got a brand new generation of people that are coming in that have the skills around the tools a lot, but because of the things that have been going on, they aren't necessarily as driven to solve the problem. Right? Yep.

We kinda went off on a tangent.

Mike: No. No. I But all of those things are connected to the fact that the tool alone

Mitch: Is not

Mike: doesn't isn't enough. Is

Matt: solve the

Mike: problem. Right.

Matt: Yeah. The tool People think all the time, I buy this tool, I buy I hire this consultant, I do this thing, and that solves the problem. And there's a reason it's called work, there's a reason why we're leaders in a business. It's gonna be work. It's gonna be a problem to solve.

And the problems that you're solving aren't always market problems. They aren't always you know, positioning problems, external positioning problems. Sometimes it's how do I get my team to change the way their behavior works? How do I move them forward? How do I bring them forward with us into a new way of working?

And, yeah, it's it's definitely a thing.

Mitch: We just saw an example of this, I think, yesterday. We laid out a list of more than 10 do these things to somebody. And even then, there's like a, okay, but how do I do those things? There's like a, but I actually need to go do those things. And there's still that gap of like, even though it's it's you should be using this for this and this for this and this for this, there's like still that need to There's no just waving a magic wand and all a sudden it's done.

It's like you need to actually get into it, learn it, be with it, make it part of the way that you think. A

Matt: lot of it has to do with caring about that, quite frankly, and caring enough that you're going to either invest in people that will help move that forward or you're going to do it yourself, right? And so, you talked about previous recent experience. We've had a number of different recent experiences that I think apply. One in particular where there was a decision made to switch technologies and this is what we're going to do, and that was done at an executive level for lots of very good business reasons, lots of very good reasons both from a cost perspective, but also from a functionality and work perspective, compliance, governance, and then also just being able to continue to work similar to what you currently do. But there was zero effort put in to actually implement it beyond IT, turn this one off, turn this one on.

And that's not enough. The result was six months of pain, exceeding pain for everyone involved because the people who were impacted by it weren't happy with what they got. The leadership had to hear about all the fact that they weren't happy and they weren't as effective in doing their jobs. So, you know, that's one. The one you talked about just now is like, we got through the end of a project and it's like, hey, this is what you should do.

And it's like, what do we do next? Right? Great. I know I have a clear plan. I understand.

And they're in a good spot because they're like, what do we do next? Right? You know, where we, on our project, struggle is like that other side where somebody's like, what's next? And I don't want to pay for anybody to help me with that, and I don't have everybody that I want to task to make it better, and I don't, you know, you gotta focus on it. You have to have, you have to desire for that to change and spend time on it.

Mike: Do you think that that problem is more a problem of like investment, questioning the investment, or a problem of not having a ready made checklist? There's it's multiple Because I know adoption is part of that thing too, Yeah.

Matt: So this is an interesting question because we talk about it all the time, a lot of these things are individual skills that are felt at the organization level, that's how we phrase it. In that world, when you bring in an individual that is highly skilled at those things into an organization that's not, and they have the power, it's gonna happen naturally. Like, it's just gonna change because that person is not gonna wanna work the way that everybody else is working, and it's gonna go. Right? In an organization where no one has those skills, but they know they have a problem, they need a way to get there.

And the way that they get there can be varied. It can be lots of different ways to get there, but a lot of it has to do with individuals choosing that I'm going to, even if it's in my own little small world, move that ball forward and have a focus on that, right? And where they're most effective is when at a leadership level they say, this is important. I want you all to be working on it. Here are some resources that can help you grow in this way.

Because as you grow, we will grow together. Like, the organization will grow. Lastly, great, you're growing. Now you have a key person in this process that leaves and you get a new person in and they don't have the mindset. What do you do?

You also need a plan for because today, in today's world, you know, this is not a common mindset. You know, individuals' pockets within organizations will have it, but organizations, generally speaking, struggle with this. And so, how do you bring a new person in and get them indoctrinated? Right? How do you get them to understand what's going on?

Which we, even us, we struggle with that. Right? We struggle from the curse of knowledge. Right? Like, it's really comfortable and convenient to be working the way we work when it's us working on a project with some other people that have worked with us for a long time.

Yeah. You add a new person to the mix and it's like

Mike: So what I'm hearing is is potential solution for all of those problems would be something like, if you have a champion, great. If you don't have a champion, see if you can find one. If you can't find a champion, a coach might help. And then in the midst of all of that, you should be assembling your principles into a playbook.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: Or something.

Matt: The champions thing, that's why that term resonates a lot with me at least when we talk about these things. And it's, I think, why Microsoft chose it as one of their things in their methodology. Yeah, 100%. You need to be having people, and it can come from lots of different places, and it doesn't have to be super formal, and you don't have to spend a ton of time on it necessarily in formal ways. It can vary by organization, but you need to be moving and lifting everyone up.

Mitch, I think it was you that was like, hey, there's these different levels, and I think your analogy there is very, very appropriate in that you're really, you know, people who

Mitch: Can I be honest? I was just thinking about that analogy and I was like, I need to write about this thing. Like, Yeah. I feel like I need a document.

Matt: It's a

Mitch: good one. Yeah. Thanks. It's such a weird concept to explain.

Matt: Yeah. It will But it applies if you think about that in the context of Power Platform and low code, no code, 100% the same thing. If you think about that in the context of AI, 100% the same thing. If you think about that in context of some of the other Microsoft tools where you can collaborate, you can do planning, you can do, you know, all of that stuff, It is the modern world is enabling and empowering people to do all that stuff in a way that they couldn't before.

Mitch: So does resolving this look like changing some of the education that people are brought up in? Or is it once we once this becomes the norm, it'll be better? Like, we we work with all different sorts of people. All they have different reactions to it. But consist we've seen this situation consistently.

I'm I don't know if there's a magic bullet for it, but Are you talking about

Matt: the world or a Yeah. In the context of a person.

Mitch: World peace. World How we how we find world peace?

Mike: I've looked at this as like when you talk about education, it's part of the reason we exist. And it's like we educate, right, in in this area specifically. But this is I've seen the stuff that we teach as something that's like, oh man, I wish they would teach that at the college level. Right. Like, that would be cool to walk out of college and have this, like, built in mindset and approach to the to any tools that you're using, especially as like a knowledge worker or in that space, but it's just not there.

Right? They're they're teaching you different a different skill set.

Mitch: I feel like I'm so biased in that sense because when I was in school, I was in school with a bunch of nerds. People into technology and into Mhmm. Computers and how a CPU works, and like, they like to fiddle with things and learn all these other skills. Sure. I was in some gen ed classes that I I didn't know those people as well because I spent less time with them.

But how how do you and I'm not suggesting college is the answer to this either, but what is How do you resolve that?

Matt: The tools have to change. And the mindset around the tools have to change across the board. When we think about it and the way I look at it when we talk to people is once somebody has gotten the mindset, it starts to be pervasive in how they think about things, and they start desiring things that they didn't desire before. And as a result, the tools change, right? And there's a lot of people who look at it and go, one tool is better than another, or one tool added a feature and that is what changed it.

I'm of the mindset that it's really better articulating the business need because the marketeers and the product managers and the developers from these products are reacting to market demands. And we will only change how that works so that those work better in these ways by talking about it this way. If you don't talk about it this way, they're going to continue to look for the tallest nail and slam it down. Right. And that is not really the best way to move forward.

And I say that because when you think about how the vast majority of people operate, it's very self focused. It's and it's not but it's not necessarily by choice. They're doing it because it's what's easy. My OneDrive is easy. My in the G Suite, my G Drive

Mike: is easy.

Mitch: You're saying it's not selfish in nature?

Matt: No. No. When people unlock the thing of like, oh, I could just do this, and then I don't have these problems? Yeah, yeah, let's do that. Right?

But the problem is the tools aren't really super easy. And so I think it's a combination, back to your question, of having more people who understand the mindset and have a desire for it, because I don't think there's enough people who desire it today at all.

Mitch: Yeah. I think that's what I'm tapping into, is there needs to be an amount of curiosity to jump over that little gap that that we're articulating that the tools come down to. I'm with you. The tools could could come down even further, but I think there's there's still I don't know if it's a status quo, fear of change, or laziness sometimes of I don't want to do that. I just want to work my way and I'm good.

But I'm eager to see if that changes. Like, I don't mean to paint this in that light, but like, that's why we do the podcast, so people can hear about this sort of thing and hopefully, you know, start

Matt: It getting a why taste for we do this.

Mike: It is

Matt: why we talk about these things is because we've seen it provide value to people, we've seen it transform how people work. And that's not to say that it's all us. Like, I've worked with a number of people that in the time that we worked together, you know, they didn't really buy into it all the way. But three years later, they're all in, right? There is a thing that's kind of infectious about what's happening.

And some of it isn't just us, it's also the tools, like I said. Like the once you start to get in and actually have a good experience with one of the tools or start to desire something about a tool, you start to just move that way.

Mitch: Yeah. I'll say one of the more rewarding moments is we have some avenues in working with Microsoft that's been a lot of fun. It feels like we're a tiny fish in a huge pond over there.

Matt: Oh, yeah.

Mitch: But Matt's in there showing up every day, giving feedback, like being a voice and among a couple of other of us. But it's clear that they know our name there, like, in certain circles, and that's that's in the products that we work with. And to the point where get to know one of them and say, hey, we have this. I'd be interested in your feedback on like this course that we put together. So our I sent one of them our foundations course and he took it and he was like, wow, that's a really good way to explain the tools and mirrors the way that we think about things.

And I'm like, okay. We need to get that like satiated, saturated throughout their product strategy. This makes it sound like I have some agenda, but I I I don't.

Matt: I mean, I'll tell you, I have an agenda. My agenda is I want the tools to work for people who want

Mike: to work

Matt: like me.

Mitch: A self serving agenda is what I'm trying not to say. But, yes, I'm with you.

Matt: Like, it is an interesting thing because, like I said before, having the insight into how these the product teams think about these things, they're reacting to feedback. And when they get a feedback from somebody that says, what the heck? This user doesn't have access to my notes after a meeting, they're going to go solve that problem. But the real problem is the notes aren't in the right spot. The notes should be somewhere else.

But it's hard for people to care enough to have or to think hard enough about that to say that in that way. But in most people, when you really get into it and you really sit down and have a conversation and said, hey, if your world could be like, imagine you could change just more than this one problem. Imagine you could change all of it. What would it look like? And all of sudden they start to transform their thinking into, oh, yeah, yeah.

I mean, yes. But today I have this problem where this guy can't get into this thing and so

Mitch: And it's big company, so we need to solve that tomorrow.

Matt: Yeah.

Mike: Well, I think I think right now, especially through those groups that we're involved in with Microsoft, I think there's a different opportunity than there was ten, fifteen years ago. Because they've invited not just us, but a number of others who are using the same tools in a lot of in a wide range of organizations and they're listening to all of those voices. And I think fifteen years ago, it was more like I need to sell x processor licenses for this farm to this big customer. What do they need it to do? Maybe even a little bit longer than that ago, but like there is a difference in how they're pursuing

Matt: Yeah. So back in the day back in the day, I've been involved in a couple different Microsoft initiatives. There was there was a heavy reliance on big organizations Mhmm. And on partners. Like, partners could join the black belt whatever program, and then you'd go to Microsoft and meet with them and talk about their things, and they would listen to what you're saying, but quite frankly, back then, they only did it in person.

It's very expensive. Yeah. You know, I got flown out to Redmond and spent three days and blah blah blah blah.

Mike: It was easier to Today, do what they're doing

Matt: you just get on Teams and you do a call and people are on, and we got people from around the world all at the same time, right? Yep. So, in the same way that the tools are transforming businesses normal, you know, in businesses that are using the tools that these people are building, it's transforming their business, right? You know, the thought of being able to do the program that we're in back when I was doing some of these, it just wouldn't happen ever, like ever. There's just no way to do it.

We're talking back when yeah. It was you wouldn't you wouldn't have been able to do it. There's no way. And so, yeah, I mean, it is a different world for everybody, and I think the tools are one piece of it, and you have to have the tools. But the other piece is you gotta be invested in making it better and believing that it'll have value because it's not cheap, to be clear.

Mitch: I'm scanning through our notes here, and I realized there's another sort of similarity in just about the problem in the home improvement world. So you can hire specialists to do all of your home improvement.

Matt: Mhmm.

Mitch: Or you can go to Home Depot and get an electrical box and an outlet and some Romex and wire it up yourself and get the permit and and get it checked by a licensed electrician. Why are you air quoting? So in order for someone to go to those stores, they have to have a certain amount of curiosity or willingness to learn how to do something new the first time they go, or they learn it from someone else. And I think that is the same hunger that we're pushing for, to say, like, maybe Home Depot made it easier to fix your house. The tools are making it easier.

We need to see that little amount of curiosity, willingness to get in, wire up a new outlet, that sort of thing. Does that make sense?

Matt: Everything but the wire up a new outlet. I don't recommend anyone who is doing their first home improvement job to buy some Romex and run some wire. Don't recommend it.

Mitch: Well, you find a good YouTube channel.

Matt: But you're right about, you know, you want to do anything like that and you definitely need to have a desire, but then you need some people who are talking about it and and you're learning a little bit about it that gets you like, oh, I could make this better. Yeah. How can I make this better?

Mitch: And I I hope I'm illustrating the fact that we want that curiosity. We don't want to say, you need a bunch of people, hundreds of employees going to Home Depot to build your office building.

Matt: No.

Mitch: Right? It's it's about that curiosity, that willingness more than anything.

Matt: Yeah.

Mitch: Okay. We're coming up close to time here. So I think the thing that I wanna end with one more little excerpt, and then I wanna end with a few closing thoughts. So one of the the sections here that we want to call out is tools don't enforce maturity all the time. So just because you are rolling out a new tool doesn't make humans be better humans or be better coworkers.

You can sometimes think you can strong-arm people into doing that, but then you'll hear about it in all the back channels. And so one of the the primary areas we work with is communication and collaboration. Those are naturally meant to be a little bit messy. Right? And so how do we how do we think about that?

You can do this, but it doesn't make someone it's like the carrot and the stick sort of thing.

Matt: Yeah. Even more so, when we talk about the difference between the different apps, the modern tools are worse. When you think about implementing an ERP system, you're going to have a project that's going to shut off a bunch of buttons and disable things and it's going to work in a very prescribed methodology, right? These tools aren't that way. You can do it all sorts of ways, including the bad way.

And the concept around people having discipline and understanding what they should be doing is like a it's a thing. It is definitely an important piece of this.

Mike: I would refer people to our Foundations course where we talk about how leaders Shameless plug. Shameless plug. Go for it. Absolutely. Where we talk about how leadership should approach something like this.

One is lead by example. Right? Particularly in that messy space. Break down barriers.

Mitch: You can't say let's use teams and then go email people.

Mike: That's right. Don't do that. Yeah. Break down barriers, make it easy for your people.

Matt: And and that's kind of my point is, you can say, hey, we're gonna implement Teams and then go email people. Right. Or use direct message chat or still put everything in your OneDrive. Right? And the reason that's the case is because there's legitimate reasons you might do that.

The problem I have with, back to my other thing, is that's the thing that's always number one. In every box that you ever look or anywhere, it's always OneDrive or email or Yeah. And it's like, that needs to change. Send people to the right spot by default and then add the others later. But yeah, maturity is not something these tools enforce.

That's half of what we're talking about, is that you have to have the desire to say, we're going to be mature about it and we're going to make that happen and this is how we're going to do it, instead of just saying, this tool is going to fix the problem.

Mitch: Okay. Let's end with a few guiding questions or things that people can leave with. I like to give answers. I like to give solutions in these podcasts. I don't know that we have a magic bullet solution besides try harder or get people that are willing to try harder.

So in absence of that recommendation, there's a few kind of parting thoughts I want you to ponder. Okay? So a few questions for you. First is, where am I waiting to be saved? Right?

Where where are you just hanging out, hoping someone comes in and fixes it so you don't have to? Or what am I blaming on the tool? Where you say, this is the this is the tool's fault. It's not my fault. Let's just live with it.

And then last one is what responsibility am I avoiding by calling this a system problem? I yeah. I I feel like I can say I do that one sometimes. It's just the way things work around here, so I'm not gonna apply myself. Nothing's wrong here is what I Yeah.

Nothing's wrong. It's the perfect Other places yeah. So nobody's coming to save you, but don't do it alone. You are expected to do the work. Yeah.

This was a little more meta, a little more, yeah, mindset approach than some of our other ones, but hopefully it was helpful. Do we have any parting thoughts before we go? Is there anything

Matt: The only thing I can say is I can think of men in the the questions that you posed. I can think of many, both customers and in my experience, where I fit those things, right? Where the customer explains a problem and I go, that's not your problem. You should not be doing it that way at all. Right?

Like you're you're creating the problem. And that's an example of, I'm waiting for somebody to save me. I'm like, I'm just stuck. There's nothing I can do on this problem or the system is the tool. So, I resonate with those questions a lot, and I think there are signs, if you were to answer yes to those, you know, then the question is, is that something you're really gonna solve or are you going to get somebody else?

Because wait there's a difference between waiting for somebody to solve it or I'm gonna find somebody to solve it.

Mitch: Mhmm.

Mike: I think my parting thought for those questions would be simply take it one level deeper and go through the why exercise. After you answer one of those questions, say, well, why is it that way? Well, why is it that way? Why do I have

Matt: to do it

Mike: that way? Right. Exactly. And I think that will help you get a little bit deeper.

Matt: Yep.

Mitch: And I also wanna say, if someone was like, I want to hire Bob so they can be the one to save me, like, I'm not going to say we can't help, but we can't do it all for you either. Like, there is there's always that time where it comes down to it and we say, okay, now you have to do the work. Yeah. There's no amount of money that

Matt: gets me to come in. We can help you if your problem is I don't know what to do. I don't understand the why and I don't have time to figure out the why. I'm, you know Or I know what I need to do, but it's really hard. You know, I've got, you know, 500 SharePoint sites and I need to, you know, rework and I need somebody to partner with me.

Or, you know, I've got That's where we can come in and help. But at the end of the day, when it's choosing between sending an email or posting in channels, or whether or not it is, you know, using a tool that manages the work, you know, from a business process perspective, or sending an sending an email or a direct

Mitch: An Excel

Matt: spreadsheet. Or an Excel or making another Excel spreadsheet.

Mitch: Yeah.

Matt: You know, we're not there. We're not the ones controlling the keyboard. You gotta do that.

Mike: And if you expect us to do it all, well, then we're not making you successful. We're making us successful.

Mitch: Make Others Successful, everybody. Wow. What a good way to job run tied

Matt: in. Mike.

Mitch: We just came around the bases. You're welcome.

Matt: You're welcome. On you for that.

Mitch: That was good. Yes. Thanks for listening today. We do always encourage you to to fill out the feedback form over at bulb.digital/feedback if you have any thoughts on this episode. Until next time.

Yeah. We'll see you.

Mike: Bye, everybody. Nice job, guys.

Mitch: Hey. Thanks for tuning in to Make Others Successful. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love to hear from you. There's a couple ways you can do that. One, we'd love for you to rate our show on your favorite podcasting app.

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